Curse

lennymon · Jan 30, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

How the heck does flaming PvE help anyone? Look, until you know what the delay is you got 3 choices apparently, 1: whine about gay a$$ pve ruining pvp (how?) 2: make wild guesses about WHY these fixes are delayed or 3: start coming up with ~constructive~ criticism and ideas for making everything better.

aeroclown · Jan 30, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

"May" dosent cut it in a competitive market. The new Tourney system hasnt started, and the GvG community has no new information on a start date, or exact rules, or more specific format, schedules. It's a delay and an ignore!

Change HA, Im all for that. Get the skills balanced, YESTERDAY. I don't care about Canthan New Year, sorry. A tournament in late February would be so piss poor at this point it would be laughable.

Everyone always wants to rush major updates to solve problem, but very few people ever think about the possibility that simply creating a patch and plopping it down won't cause more problems in the long run. This isn't just about you or 1000's of guilds, its about trying to patch it right so that you don't have to create another thread 2 weeks from now complaining about how much worse things are now that we have been given another patch that in someone's words would be "half-assed". Everyone wants everything yesterday but that is just not how it works, and history can prove that for ya if you want to take a look at it. Sure it was a mistake for them to implement a new system without it being fully developed, but hey wasn't that what everyone wanted yesterday.

So if this is in your opinion not about deadlines then why are we complaining about a past due patch ? You want Specs, you want information, you want to know what is going to change, sure as do we all, but information from what ? Hypothetical changes in an update that is still in R&D, changes that may or may not be completely possible without further research and development. Why would anyone want to know much less need to know what might change, a month, 2 months, before a patch/update/piece of software is even ready to be tested by the general consumer base.

I mean how many threads do we see on a daily basis were someone is complaining about something someone said would change, how often do we point the finger at Gaile or the staff and say you lied to us because someone said something MIGHT change. Why is everyone so concerned with what might be, why can't you just wait and see what really is ?

You might call me a troll sure, but I am fine being a troll if that means I can sit quietly and wait to see what might come, respecting the fact that in Development things fairly often do NOT work out as you plan them on the time lines you plan them. It is not an excuse for a company, it is a fact of the matter, though look at it how you will. Maybe they should just plunk another "half-assed" update down and call it day, seems like it would make some people happy.

If you feel this is flame bait then by all means have your fun responding, but i have said my piece, if you don't want to hear it, far be it from me to stop you from saying what you will. You will however note that NO where in this post did I ever say you didn't have a right to complain or work together to get more information out of the people you seek to get information from.

FoxBat · Jan 30, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

And you know why I also believe this is the way they are going? because the game is based on the M:TG tournament set up and the tournament plan is being run by the same man that used to run the M:TG tournaments aswell

Rits/Sins are totally NOT viable with just NF skills, they would need some designated core skills then. Paras/Dervs will likely not be viable with just chap 4 skills, although it's possible if they are overpowered enough.

I could see them running a number of tournies with skill limitations like you suggest, but would find it hard to believe they would fully wipe the old skills from the ladder. I believe part of the reason they invest so much into new professions (which = new color in MTG analogy) is because they know they can't easily kick out the old skills and all the obscene combinations that devlop among them, so by sticking your ideas into a new class and making them primary-attribute dependent (as the para/derv mostly are) you cut down on the number of abusive combinations, as opposed to 50 new skills for each core class.

Yanman.be · Jan 30, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Cut A.Net some slack. TBC just got released and they have to level their toons in order to keep up with the rest!

Lonesamurai · Jan 30, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Rits/Sins are totally NOT viable with just NF skills, they would need some designated core skills then. Paras/Dervs will likely not be viable with just chap 4 skills, although it's possible if they are overpowered enough.

I could see them running a number of tournies with skill limitations like you suggest, but would find it hard to believe they would fully wipe the old skills from the ladder. I believe part of the reason they invest so much into new professions (which = new color in MTG analogy) is because they know they can't easily kick out the old skills and all the obscene combinations that devlop among them, so by sticking your ideas into a new class and making them primary-attribute dependent (as the para/derv mostly are) you cut down on the number of abusive combinations, as opposed to 50 new skills for each core class.

you seem to have misunderstood me, this is actually their new tournament peoceedure as outlined on the website

Morgan Crowe · Jan 30, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

Everyone always wants to rush major updates to solve problem, but very few people ever think about the possibility that simply creating a patch and plopping it down won't cause more problems in the long run. This isn't just about you or 1000's of guilds, its about trying to patch it right so that you don't have to create another thread 2 weeks from now complaining about how much worse things are now that we have been given another patch that in someone's words would be "half-assed". Everyone wants everything yesterday but that is just not how it works, and history can prove that for ya if you want to take a look at it. Sure it was a mistake for them to implement a new system without it being fully developed, but hey wasn't that what everyone wanted yesterday.

So if this is in your opinion not about deadlines then why are we complaining about a past due patch ? You want Specs, you want information, you want to know what is going to change, sure as do we all, but information from what ? Hypothetical changes in an update that is still in R&D, changes that may or may not be completely possible without further research and development. Why would anyone want to know much less need to know what might change, a month, 2 months, before a patch/update/piece of software is even ready to be tested by the general consumer base.

I mean how many threads do we see on a daily basis were someone is complaining about something someone said would change, how often do we point the finger at Gaile or the staff and say you lied to us because someone said something MIGHT change. Why is everyone so concerned with what might be, why can't you just wait and see what really is ?

You might call me a troll sure, but I am fine being a troll if that means I can sit quietly and wait to see what might come, respecting the fact that in Development things fairly often do NOT work out as you plan them on the time lines you plan them. It is not an excuse for a company, it is a fact of the matter, though look at it how you will. Maybe they should just plunk another "half-assed" update down and call it day, seems like it would make some people happy.

If you feel this is flame bait then by all means have your fun responding, but i have said my piece, if you don't want to hear it, far be it from me to stop you from saying what you will. You will however note that NO where in this post did I ever say you didn't have a right to complain or work together to get more information out of the people you seek to get information from.

Yep, I think you're a troll.

Look, ANet opened those crappy ladder - they said tournaments come and playing this you'll get rating. Allright, so where are the tournaments? Why is it that a lot of bad guilds are in the top100?

I know that it's not easy to patch everything, but then ... don't announce it. "NEW TOURNAMENTS - LADDER WON'T BE THE SAME!" <- in caps, that anyone knows it. ANet should wait until they will have finished their work in a few months and no one is "whining" as lennymon calls it.

Right now, we are waiting for the tournaments and hate GvG. All this is just because ANet announced the things too early. I think that there wouldn't be any complains if they kept the old ladder system.

I see double droprate of green items is more important ... but don't wonder if the PvP players quit.

Tortoise · Jan 30, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Fact: Anet broke the ladder system and promised to install something new. Now a month later we hear that the fix to our broken ladder is being delayed by at least a month.

This isn't just about deadlines being delayed. This is about Anet changing a format and when they're halfway through deciding they should spent their resources elsewhere.

Imagine the outrage a similar thing would cause in PvE. Let's say Anet wants to change the loot system. From now on enemies won't drop any loot but instead you'll get your loot through the means of chests at the end of each quest/mission. Fine. A week later Anet uploads the first patch eliminating all loot drops and promises to work the chests in later. PvEers suck it up, mainly because of the anticipation of the promised, improved system. When their deadline is reached the info leaks that Anet is not working on that patch anymore and has relocated their resources elsewhere. PvEers are forced to just continue to play PvE without anymore loot dropping for at least another month. To make it even worse: Anet never had to decency to let the community know. The only reason why the community knows is thanks to one thoughtfull moderator that asked the right question at the community day. If it hadn't been for him everyone would still be waiting for more information.

That is basicly the current state GvG is in. We're playing a meaningless ladder with no actual competition in sight. Why? Because Anet, rightly, wanted to change the format but apparently decided to arse it up halfway through.

I'm all for changes, and I was cheering when I first heard about them but this is one of the most horrible implementations I have EVER seen.

lennymon · Jan 30, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Fact: Anet broke the ladder system and promised to install something new. Now a month later we hear that the fix to our broken ladder is being delayed by at least a month.

This isn't just about deadlines being delayed. This is about Anet changing a format and when they're halfway through deciding they should spent their resources elsewhere.

Imagine the outrage a similar thing would cause in PvE. Let's say Anet wants to change the loot system. From now on enemies won't drop any loot but instead you'll get your loot through the means of chests at the end of each quest/mission. Fine. A week later Anet uploads the first patch eliminating all loot drops and promises to work the chests in later. PvEers suck it up, mainly because of the anticipation of the promised, improved system. When their deadline is reached the info leaks that Anet is not working on that patch anymore and has relocated their resources elsewhere. PvEers are forced to just continue to play PvE without anymore loot dropping for at least another month. To make it even worse: Anet never had to decency to let the community know. The only reason why the community knows is thanks to one thoughtfull moderator that asked the right question at the community day. If it hadn't been for him everyone would still be waiting for more information.

That is basicly the current state GvG is in. We're playing a meaningless ladder with no actual competition in sight. Why? Because Anet, rightly, wanted to change the format but apparently decided to arse it up halfway through.

I'm all for changes, and I was cheering when I first heard about them but this is one of the most horrible implementations I have EVER seen.

Heh, an intersting and probably mostly accurate comparison. My guess is though anet ran into some 'difficulties' with the auto-tournament and with software in place already perhaps it'd create more work to roll it back than continue to plug away at making it work, I dunno. I agree that rolling back or even a new mini tournament to hold things together while they figure out how to implement the auto thing would be best IF they aren't 'very close' to finalizing.

FoxBat · Jan 30, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Ok, quick guild wars chapter lesson
Chapter 4 will not have any skills for Assassin or Ritualist, and like nightfall will have very little for Paragon and Dervish, then introducing the two new professions, and like any major tournaments that happen after the release of chapter 4, only chapter 4 and core skills will be usable in GvG tournaments

I'm not finding this info, although there's a fair amount of stuff to ruffle through "on their website." You can't simply take Chapter 2 and 3 Tournies or anything said about them as precedent, since we are going to see a *lot* of Automated ones soon(ish) and the rules will likely be altered in some way.

Also non-core professions being just about useless without their respective chapter skills, is pretty much true regardless of what A-net says.

Vital · Jan 30, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Actually that information about the tournaments is readily available on the guild wars website...

And you know why I also believe this is the way they are going? because the game is based on the M:TG tournament set up and the tournament plan is being run by the same man that used to run the M:TG tournaments aswell

The information from Dec 22nd was a general scope of the project. It does not include length of tournaments, start dates, start hours, special considerations, map usage, and other important tidbits the GvG community would like to know.

It is difficult to maintain a core roster and the scheduling of GvG's when you know that you may have to extend or shrink the core and change schedules when the Guild Wars meets M: TG.

Think about it in this way:

Joe: Should we recruit or keep our core at 9 players?

Blow: Let's recruit 3 more players so if these tournaments are lengthy we can have enough on to compete.

Joe: What if they are short and sweet and we only really need our regular core? We will have 3-4 people not playing...well unless we play the free ladder...but probably not because it sucks balls and is exhausting after the tourneys take our scheduled time.

Blow: Good point, but then again if we don't have those recruits and one of the core quits we are screwed for 30 days, GfG!!! Plus what if the tourneys start at at time when we have enough on, but people really have to leave before they end.

Joe: Damn, that rule is so F'ing stupid, and who knows when these things will start...I guess just recruit and not play them or play them and have less synergy on the team.

Blow: W/E, I guess we will wait and see, it's been like 7 weeks now and Im sick of it. Im going to play CS until this shit is fixed.

Joe: Yeah this +2/-2 BS is getting so old and I cant even get the guild to decide on recruiting or not, what's a good schedule, what builds to run with overpowered skills, I just give up...guess Ill go to GoA and make more millions.

Vital · Jan 30, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Cut A.Net some slack. TBC just got released and they have to level their toons in order to keep up with the rest!

This is very true!

sir lockt · Jan 31, 2007, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

*discussion post*

LOL.. indeed.. very nice visualisation of what is happening in many guilds. People are unsure what to do, should I change to that guild I always liked? or stick here?

I see also the most weirdest builds popping up... lets prepare for tournament grinding... for what? tournament? how, what?

...we just wait...and see how much members a guild have left when this is all normalized again...

Grolubao · Jan 31, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Fact: Anet broke the ladder system and promised to install something new. Now a month later we hear that the fix to our broken ladder is being delayed by at least a month.

This isn't just about deadlines being delayed. This is about Anet changing a format and when they're halfway through deciding they should spent their resources elsewhere.

Imagine the outrage a similar thing would cause in PvE. Let's say Anet wants to change the loot system. From now on enemies won't drop any loot but instead you'll get your loot through the means of chests at the end of each quest/mission. Fine. A week later Anet uploads the first patch eliminating all loot drops and promises to work the chests in later. PvEers suck it up, mainly because of the anticipation of the promised, improved system. When their deadline is reached the info leaks that Anet is not working on that patch anymore and has relocated their resources elsewhere. PvEers are forced to just continue to play PvE without anymore loot dropping for at least another month. To make it even worse: Anet never had to decency to let the community know. The only reason why the community knows is thanks to one thoughtfull moderator that asked the right question at the community day. If it hadn't been for him everyone would still be waiting for more information.

That is basicly the current state GvG is in. We're playing a meaningless ladder with no actual competition in sight. Why? Because Anet, rightly, wanted to change the format but apparently decided to arse it up halfway through.

I'm all for changes, and I was cheering when I first heard about them but this is one of the most horrible implementations I have EVER seen.

Very good analogy!

I wouldn't be surprised if I saw them power leveling their chars in WoW...

Bio-Flame · Jan 31, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I wouldn't be surprised If they are clueless as to why we're all upset....

Vital · Feb 01, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Here is a little something to remind you that even though the GvG Daily Automated Tournament project might not be AWESOME...we still want SOME NEW INFORMATION!!!

Thanks

Vital · Feb 02, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Information on the Daily Automated Tournaments has been posted by Gaile in a DEV thread in Riverside.

Lock this baby until April!